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 Post subject: Future Pinball - Physic Overhaul
 Post Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 6:06 am 
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Ok we started the discussion with other members interested in the physic modification in the ID4 table post, but just to avoid the OT is better to talk about this in a specific post.

The latest improvements for the FP physic is inside BAM and contains a new flipper parameteres that could really be the game changer.
At the moment I like the precision of the aiming but the general ball behavior is not so good, so the main goal is to obtain a natural ball behavior as well as a natural aiming for flippers.

I've started to change and test parameters with some tables and this is the actual physic

This video is in low resolution and without the new renderer mode, because my gfx card is dead and I've used the integrated intel hd to record the video, but at least is 60fps

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07VUrz7rpiE


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 Post subject: Re: Future Pinball - Physic Overhaul
 Post Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 7:13 am 
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Joined: Mon Jan 27, 2014 12:36 pm
Posts: 2823
Location: Ontario, Canada
Thanks Monnezzas,

What are the typical problems that you see ?
How are you dealing with them ?

The video looks great, what things do you want us to observe ?


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 Post subject: Re: Future Pinball - Physic Overhaul
 Post Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 8:07 am 
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At the moment I don't see any problems with this parameters I changed, but you know...it's better to collect as many opinions as you can.

First test I've made after modding the physic was a test in the VPX Elvis table, the one made by the great JPSalas.
https://www.vpforums.org/index.php?app= ... file=12983

if you give it a try you'll discover that is really difficult to aim a ramp and, in an entire game I've never hitted the 2 ramps, while in FP with this settings I can hit the ramp 7 on 10, so this is really really good, but this doesn't mean that at the moment FP has a better physic than VPX cause the way the ball reacts to rubbers and other materials is a bit more realistic, and you can feel the heaviness of the ball a little bit more ( no it's not a matter of table slope or gravity)
Said this, we should not take the VPX physic as a reference, we can refer to the real world physic, is only something that is nice to compare.

WHAT TO DO NOW:

I need to fix some problems with this changed parameters, tha main problem is the ramp material that is so different from the playfield material that sometimes creates an unpredictable strange spin of the ball.

The second problem is to make the forces compatible to the newest parameters, (for e.g.) if you change friction on the playfield even a simple kicker could be weaker or stronger than before as well as a plunger, so all these factors needs to be calibrated to fit the others.

The Third and maybe last, sometimes the ball spins too much when is blocked keeping on spin on his axis even if it's still, this is caused by the different parameters of all the materials

Once fixed I'll share with you a test table where you can spot other problems so we can check it together and finally make a standard basic physic.


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 Post subject: .
 Post Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 12:38 pm 
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Joined: Sun Dec 30, 2018 8:17 am
Posts: 68
Location: France
.


Last edited by backup on Fri Aug 23, 2019 3:54 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Future Pinball - Physic Overhaul
 Post Posted: Mon May 20, 2019 6:43 am 
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Joined: Mon Jan 27, 2014 12:36 pm
Posts: 2823
Location: Ontario, Canada
Please continue your work Monnezzas, sounds promising


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 Post subject: Re: Future Pinball - Physic Overhaul
 Post Posted: Mon May 20, 2019 12:18 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:12 pm
Posts: 2487
Location: Arkansas, USA
Before you get too far, I suggest that you work on gates. I have found that gates on a ramp can be a serious problem. The ball can hit the gate and roll back down the ramp or it slows the ball down and makes it difficult to get the ball all the way up the ramp. Sometimes, the ball can hit the gate on the launch lane and roll back down to the plunger.

The reason for working on it early is that the fixes for the gates end up changing the physics for the whole table. It is because nearly all tables have a gate at the end of the launch lane and changing the physics on it affects the speed of the ball for the whole table.

This is what I have been using lately:

<gate mass="0.010" gravity="100" damping="0.50"></gate>

The values might seem low but it is what you need to get the ball through gates on a ramp.

I found what Smoke posted about gates at the link below helped me:

viewtopic.php?f=86&t=4365

George


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 Post subject: Re: Future Pinball - Physic Overhaul
 Post Posted: Mon May 20, 2019 6:09 pm 
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GeorgeH wrote:
Before you get too far, I suggest that you work on gates. I have found that gates on a ramp can be a serious problem. The ball can hit the gate and roll back down the ramp or it slows the ball down and makes it difficult to get the ball all the way up the ramp. Sometimes, the ball can hit the gate on the launch lane and roll back down to the plunger.

The reason for working on it early is that the fixes for the gates end up changing the physics for the whole table. It is because nearly all tables have a gate at the end of the launch lane and changing the physics on it affects the speed of the ball for the whole table.

This is what I have been using lately:

<gate mass="0.010" gravity="100" damping="0.50"></gate>

The values might seem low but it is what you need to get the ball through gates on a ramp.

I found what Smoke posted about gates at the link below helped me:

http://gopinball.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=86&t=4365

George


Yes I had a similar problem with Abra Can Dabra CPM ( and even Buccaneer ) cause they have different physics , that's what I mean with calibration of all the forces. If in the end this is going to be the basic fp physic of the "New Table" that everyone approves, it must be safe and working without problems as it was for the classic fp newton physic, bad but safe for table builders.

@Gimli
Sure, I need only a bit of time

@backup
Sorry I don't speak french


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 Post subject: Re: Future Pinball - Physic Overhaul
 Post Posted: Mon May 20, 2019 9:54 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 01, 2012 11:13 pm
Posts: 408
Location: Abbotsford
Alternate gate mass. The values posted above don't work very well with gates where the wire is completely horizontal (Like Fantom) and may still hang on them, which is of course a broken game.

Code:
'  <gate mass=".1" gravity="500.0" damping=".25"></gate>


It's as low as you can go, but hasn't messed up once.

Also, Have a very good look at getting ball mass in there. It's a vital physics statement, and affects the weight of the ball, which you can certainly use to manipulate in code. Rav posted a example in one of his fpt files, but none of us can make any sense of it, just too complex, so if you can figure out a way that allows us to change the ball mass/weight any time we want to, certainly make it very easy to fudge some of the missing physics.

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 Post subject: Re: Future Pinball - Physic Overhaul
 Post Posted: Mon May 20, 2019 10:24 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 27, 2014 12:36 pm
Posts: 2823
Location: Ontario, Canada
Ok , I deleted a thread I started and told Francisco, I was going to let it go....but I just couldn't. I had to try out an idea and I believe it works.

Mind you , at the end of the day no one may wish to implement it , but I still find it amusing testing out new ideas.

This really isn't a physics overhaul item, but rather "when the physics overhaul lets you down and you want to fake it"

Ok so lets say we want to superimpose a realistic dummy ball over the real ball during the times when that nasty lifeless ball skidding occurs.....


https://youtu.be/sst47VybTbw

In the video above observe the following:

1. The game will start with damping set to 0.250 and the "real ball" which is a green tennis ball spins freely . I will change damping to 10.0 in Physics Tweaks menu and you will observe the ball "Skids" and stops spinning completely

2. Observe the Biplane off to the side of the table .
I have set the "z" rotation to coincide with 360 - BallTrajectory ( Balltrajectory is one of the parameters that BAM can track...)

Later in the video, I will attach the biplane to the ball using BAM ball tracking and you will see that the Biplane always points in the direction of the ball trajectory

3. Observe the spinning fireball toy off to side of the table, I have set the x and y rotation
of the toy , also based on the trajectory of the actual ball . It is isn't perfect but it is a start and it demonstrates the concept. The damping value has no impact on this. So even when the real ball skids.
The fireball still spins...

Later in the video , I will superimpose the fire ball and switch the damping between 10 and .250 and you will see that ball continues to spin regardless.

This superimposed dummy ball and it's rotation have zero impact of course on the physics of the actual ball and are just creating an illusion....

I then set the ball tracing to true and then the fireball does exactly what the real balls based on the damping value.

So I definitely think a refined version of this could seamlessly remove the skidding artifact
if we think at some point this is a worthy cause.

It may seem unnecessary but I just needed to prove the concept....thanks for listening :lol:


Last edited by Gimli on Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Future Pinball - Physic Overhaul
 Post Posted: Tue May 21, 2019 1:33 am 
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Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:12 pm
Posts: 2487
Location: Arkansas, USA
Blue,

I tried values in the range you are using on Independence Day but 2 of the ramps have 3 gates on each ramp (2 V gates and one solid). I ended up lowering the values even more. ...But if Francisco wants me to change the physics on it, I'll give your values a try.

Gimli,

I personally don't use custom balls that much any more so fake ball spin doesn't really do much for me because I can't see the ball spin anyway. ...But it is pretty cool the way you made it work though.

George


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