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 Post subject: Re: BAM - FP Physics Tweaks. [vip]
 Post Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2016 5:02 pm 
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Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2016 11:16 pm
Posts: 32
GeorgeH wrote:
Where do you get newton documentation? Everything I have learned about physics on FP is by pure experimentation.


Most is here:
http://newtondynamics.com/wiki/index.php5?title=Main_Page


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 Post subject: Re: BAM - FP Physics Tweaks. [vip]
 Post Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2016 9:42 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 27, 2014 12:36 pm
Posts: 3052
Location: Ontario, Canada
Hi,
I am temporarily breaking my self imposed vow of silence, for a comment from the peanut gallery......take it for the 1 1/2 cents that it is worth...


I LOVE THIS INNOVATION!!!
Thanks Rafal


Real time physics tweaks, so we can see what the H is going on !!!!

I am trying to think of an objective path we can pursue, which is likely a fools errand.

In my economy, here are my priorities, in order:

1. Ball Weight/Gravity/Mass/Whatever. Does the ball feel floaty or seem to have a realist solidness to it. I think George/blue/malifca/Slam/Skinooe/Monnezzas have a similar settings here, but we can check

2. Once the ball "solidness" seems good, How is flipper accuracy? (I am really liking,
blue's Playboy Flipper Mod)
For this I suggest using a vector overlay to see if the flippers are set to achieve all the target lanes. Why an overlay, it just gives a clear visual , that we can, record if necessary to show others... It makes sense to me (although likely I am wrong) to standardize the flipper vectors while hitting a stationary ball, with no spin.

Why? It make sense to remove all the randomness and voodoodoo and just make sure that in a Utopian world, with no friction and spin, that the flipper angles are true

We often do this playing pinball by cradling the ball before we shoot, and to know that at least we can slow the game down, cradle the ball and make a true shot, I think, is a good place to start.

It seems to me that "damping" impacts spin. If you have some of miownkhan's custom balls, then choose one with texture , by pressing "n" or "p" on the keyboard ,then play with the "damping" setting and you will see how "damping" effects spin......I have "damping" set to 10.0 . And the ball is stationary. With this the ball trajectory is very predictable.

I played ping ping recently and my opponent put crazy spin on the ball, and it was almost unhittable and my shots flew in every direction except the table. At times, FP does crazy things, and it may be ,at least in part, because of exaggerated spin math.

While I am ok with inherent randomness, that gives a sense of reality, chaos is something different.....

Rav, is there a way to remove actual spin ("damping" set to 10.0) and yet visually see
the ball rolling (virtual spin) just for eye candy? In other words, disconnect the physics from the visual.....I like the predictability of "damping" set to 10.0 but the visual looks
"cardboard". Likely a crazy idea...oh well

I have played VR Stern Pinball on my VR Gear headset as well as TPA, and the ball
doesn't appear to spin visually.....maybe some of the other pinball programs, have better or no spin calculus....

3. Finally once the ball "solidness" seems right and the flippers are true...Add spin and all the material and bumper stuff to create a table that is vibrant , at times random, yet has an underlying solid and reliable base

It seems to me:
1. can be a recommendation based on consensus (optional)
2. Is objective (either the flippers are true or they are not)
3. Is subjective and up to the creative whims of the table builder (but the net effect
shouldn't negate 1. and 2.)

(I may be way off base, but try the high setting of damping and use a ball that you can see the spin and see if you agree that your shots are now much more predictable)

Thanks for listening :D

P.S
Rafal FYI , I notice from the debug code, that "Omega" setting only impact the strength of Flippers 1 and 2 , which are the visible flippers in blue's mod and does not impact
Flipper 3 and 4 , which are the short invisible flippers..... which is fine


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 Post subject: Re: BAM - FP Physics Tweaks. [vip]
 Post Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:34 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:12 pm
Posts: 2781
Location: Arkansas, USA
Gimli wrote:
... If you have some of miownkhan's custom balls, then choose one with texture , by pressing "n" or "p" on the keyboard ,then play with the "damping" setting and you will see how "damping" effects spin......I have "damping" set to 10.0 . And the ball is stationary. With this the ball trajectory is very predictable. ...


Miownkhan has started to delve into physics also. I think he started by not being satisfied with my physics on the "Gladiators" table so he made some changes himself which I ended up using after doing some tweaking of my own. His thinking is that ball spin is a combination of playfieldMat characteristics softnessCoef of the material, staticFriction that provides grip and kineticFriction that provides momentum. I haven't tested his thinking just yet. But I agree with you that damping affects it too. In fact, I think that the elasticCoef under playfieldMat has some similarities to damping also. So you might want to experiment with it also. The trick is that when you change one parameter it tends to affect the others. So when you change one parameter you end up changing lots of them which makes Rafal's real time change quite welcome and we will all be able to get through it faster.

George


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 Post subject: Re: BAM - FP Physics Tweaks. [vip]
 Post Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:54 pm 
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Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2016 11:16 pm
Posts: 32
Wonderful post Gimli.

For a fairly good visual of simulated ball spin try the Zaccaria Pinball game on Steam. They have a free table and similar business model as TPA. The physics are EM/SS segregated and vary wildly from table to table and Arcade/Simulation mode.

While you play Zaccaria, one thing that will give your brain confirmation bias that the ball has proper heft is the rolling sound. You will be amazed at how much difference this makes to your eyes.


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 Post subject: Re: BAM - FP Physics Tweaks. [vip]
 Post Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2016 11:02 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 27, 2014 12:36 pm
Posts: 3052
Location: Ontario, Canada
Quote:
His thinking is that ball spin is a combination of playfieldMat characteristics softnessCoef of the material, staticFriction


Yes and inumerable other things effect it to...Flipper angle on impact, flipper strength, gravity, ball mass , table slope, accumulitve collision forces with each object struck, humidity and altitude :D

I think Damping , puts a wet blanket on all that stuff....I am just saying start by removing spin from the equation , at least to start. Then you don't have to worry how it may or may not be interacting with all the other xml parameters.....spin gives you the "spins"


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 Post subject: Re: BAM - FP Physics Tweaks. [vip]
 Post Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2016 12:00 am 
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Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2016 11:16 pm
Posts: 32
Well I think I have reached the limit with what I can expect to get out of FP physics in it's current state and can say I am satisfied on an 8 of 10 scale.

First, the ability to store values in a table specific XML is without a doubt the paradigm shift we needed. Table authors can modify to the point of achieving their desired result and there isn't really a right or wrong XML setting if you are including it with your table and for that table which has been calibrated along with those XML values.

There isn't a reason to refer to original 2.x or Zed physics anymore. Just call them custom, and/or BAM physics.

Having said that, I started my research with wanting to play the classic Popotte EM tables that were built and configured for the original physics but with a more realistically weighted ball. All while not needing to modify the table much...

So after much wailing and gnashing of teeth. I have settled on a single XML file that so far works with everything[*]. This means 1.0 to 2.7 and Zed/Custom (though with additional table surgery) too.

What do I gain from this? It feels like I am playing all these wonderful tables in a single arcade. The ball feel is the same from table to table. The flipper action works as I would expect. So on and so forth.

I gave up on trying to put real world material values in place and realized it doesn't matter. I have access to many real tables, and when I'm on my computer, which pinball game gets the most playtime here? Pinball FX2... cause it is fun and a totally different experience than a real pin. I love me some TPA and Zaccaria too, but some of these are too close (warts and all) to the real thing and are more frustrating on the computer screen.

So with my "Universal" XML and "Softened" ball BMP I have a default.zip that covers 99% ([*]blue is the other 1%) of my collection. Each new table I add to my system gets the same simple alteration.

Flippers go to 1 above middle (old EM) or 2 above middle (elasticity stays as is)
Plunger will go down 1 (unless it is at lower end already)
Table slope goes up 1 degree and/or caps at 8 (brought down if needed)
Now i give it a play.
Adjust a kicker here or there and focus on the shot vectors off the flippers. I have a pretty good idea which targets are important (and fun) and will adjust the motion range and starting angle accordingly.

The nice thing is that since I have gone off the deep end and back to pretty much a stock XML, it is simple to identify how the table needs to be adjusted on first open in the editor and get a 90+ rate of success in just a few minutes.

Obviously this is still a lot of work and there are a lot of tables I want to play. But I'd rather be playing than worrying about whether the ball is rebounding off that gate just so...

I know I have posted a few WIP XML files as I was fiddling with specific tables, and those should likely be forgotten.

So the ball and flippers values have changed and that is it. I've finally ignored my better judgement to adhere to the newton best practices, and trial and error my way to what I'm sticking with until I run out of tables to play.

Here is the good enough for me to have fun and not be disappointed that I'm playing with inferior physics settings.

<physics fps="512" threaded="1"></physics>

<!-- Settings for various objects -->
<ball mass="72.3" gravity="5300.0" damping="0.25"></ball>

<flipper mass="20150.0" omega="43.0" moeMethod="0"
leftXoff="0" leftYoff="1500" leftZoff="0"
rightXoff="0" rightYoff="1500" rightZoff="0"></flipper>

I'm sold that the weight and gravity are "correct". Play with damping how you like it.
I do not like the flipper mass so high, but it is a compromise to otherwise setting up the hidden extended range Zed flipper (works wonders) on every table... but not a fun way to spend your evening(s).

Having said all that, the table I'm building will come with a custom XML though. You can't expect me to limit my creative side with a generic physics file... ;)


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 Post subject: Re: BAM - FP Physics Tweaks. [vip]
 Post Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2016 2:04 am 
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Joined: Thu Nov 18, 2010 5:56 pm
Posts: 250
Wow this BAM.DLL is great. Thanks !!!!!


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 Post subject: Re: BAM - FP Physics Tweaks. [vip]
 Post Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2016 1:24 pm 
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Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2013 4:02 pm
Posts: 1034
Update.
- one fixed error (see below)
- added option to save XML.

Gimli wrote:
I notice from the debug code, that "Omega" setting only impact the strength of Flippers 1 and 2 , which are the visible flippers in blue's mod and does not impact Flipper 3 and 4 , which are the short invisible flippers..... which is fine

No. It is not fine. It is error. Flippers with values from XML will work different than with values from Physics Tweaks menu.
It is now fixed.

Please be patien. I will read carfully questions from this thread and will answer here later today.

_________________
http://www.ravarcade.pl
Better Arcade Mode
current BAM version: v1.5-289, released: May 10, 2020


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 Post subject: Re: BAM - FP Physics Tweaks. [vip]
 Post Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2016 9:55 am 
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Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2013 4:02 pm
Posts: 1034
Another update.

Now you can change some physics settings from script.
xBAM.PhysicsXML = .... (arg is whole XML text).
VBScript require some text formating to use long, multiline string, so you have "Ctrl+C" to put whole code in clipboard.
NOTICE:
- This code in script will not change all physics settings. Only values accessible in Physics Tweak menu.
- It is not way to replace physics XML files on disks.

Another update.
In [BAM About] menu you can now change "BAM menu mode". There you can remove BAM-blue-background, help/navi strings, all things displayed on right part of BAM menu.
You can also move menu from bottom/left to bottom/right and change size.

_________________
http://www.ravarcade.pl
Better Arcade Mode
current BAM version: v1.5-289, released: May 10, 2020


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 Post subject: Re: BAM - FP Physics Tweaks. [vip]
 Post Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2016 5:45 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:12 pm
Posts: 2781
Location: Arkansas, USA
malifica wrote:
... Here is the good enough for me to have fun and not be disappointed that I'm playing with inferior physics settings.

<physics fps="512" threaded="1"></physics>

<!-- Settings for various objects -->
<ball mass="72.3" gravity="5300.0" damping="0.25"></ball>

<flipper mass="20150.0" omega="43.0" moeMethod="0"
leftXoff="0" leftYoff="1500" leftZoff="0"
rightXoff="0" rightYoff="1500" rightZoff="0"></flipper>...


Would you mind posting the rest of your *.xml file? I'd like to try it but I don't know what to use for the rest of the file.

George


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