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 Post subject: Stuttering @60fps
 Post Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2015 8:06 pm 
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Every FP table in my pinball cabinet goes at 60fps because of vsync activated and I can tell that it's all smooth... Until you play visual pinball in the same cabinet and the ball moves much more smoother... Even if it's at the same fps.

So I've started to notice that when I press f9 in FP there are 2 numbers for fps: 60(48) I think that 48 could be the average but since vsync is activated and my Geforce Gtx260 is setted for adaptive vsync, average would be 60 because first number doesn't move from 60!

Another doubt is for the physic: in some tables is 150-200, in others could be 15-40.

This kind of stutter that I'm taking about is something that you can see with the eyes and not with any fps tester.
can someone explain these 2 parameters?


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 Post subject: Re: Stuttering @60fps
 Post Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 5:19 am 
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Posts: 166
Quote:
So I've started to notice that when I press f9 in FP there are 2 numbers for fps: 60(48) I think that 48 could be the average but since vsync is activated and my Geforce Gtx260 is setted for adaptive vsync, average would be 60 because first number doesn't move from 60!


IF vsync is activated Any thing over your monitor refresh rate (60) will be ignored.Any thing lower then your monitor refresh rate (60) will shutter.
I believe your settings are set too high and\or your Geforce Gtx260 is being overworked.
The Nvidia control panel also as an Adaptive (half refresh rate) setting which might help.

Quote:
can someone explain these 2 parameters?


FP manual: ;)

Showing the Performance Counters

Pressing F9 on the keyboard will toggle the display of the performance counters in Future Pinball.

These counters show you:

:arrow: Fps Rendering Frames Per Second. This values shows you how fast the Game engine is running. This value should be above 30 and ideally close to the refresh rate of your monitor. Adjusting the Settings in the Video Preferences can greatly affect this value. If your system is running too slow then you should reduce the complexity of the table via the video preferences dialog (link). The second number (in brackets) is the average FPS over the life of the game.

:arrow: Ops The total number of Draw operations being performed by the Future Pinball rendering engine.
:arrow: Tris The total number of triangles (or polygons) being fed into the Future Pinball rendering engine each frame. Adjusting the settings in the Video Preferences dialog will greatly affect this value.
:arrow: Physics The Total Processor time (in milliseconds) the Physics Engine is taking on the current table over the last second.


The Graphics Card information is also shown.

Hope this helps 8-)


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 Post subject: Re: Stuttering @60fps
 Post Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 12:44 pm 
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Main problem is that my system never goes down 60fps, if I uncheck Vsync tables goes to 80-130fps, in Nvidia panel I've setted to adaptive vsync so only fps that exceed 60 gets "cutted"....so, how could the Average be 48 (for example)?

48 Average for me means that my framerate has a minimum of 30 and a maximum of 60.
Don't know if my Geforce is overloaded but I don't think because this happens even when BAM New renderer is not in use.


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 Post subject: Re: Stuttering @60fps
 Post Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 3:08 pm 
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Posts: 166
Quote:
Main problem is that my system never goes down 60fps, if I uncheck Vsync tables goes to 80-130fps, in Nvidia panel I've setted to adaptive vsync so only fps that exceed 60 gets "cutted"....so, how could the Average be 48 (for example)?


:?: :?: :?:
If you are getting +60 fps it should lock at monitor refresh rate, 60(59)

if it ends up reducing your overall FPS, maybe the problem is caused by the frame buffers becoming filled up, try to enable a third frame buffer to allow more headroom.
:arrow: In Nvidia's control panel have you tried enabling Triple Buffering ? Maybe in power management - enable Prefer Maximum Power ?



vsync is not always abetter setting as it does not work right for everyone. :(
There are a lot of factors (The app, Video Card, TV, PC specs in general, User settings)



I posted this in another topic thought it might be useful for comparing settings

* ok not letting me post picture * :?
about half way down in
http://www.gopinball.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=5242


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 Post subject: Re: Stuttering @60fps
 Post Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:55 pm 
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Third frame buffering? What's that?
Btw I don't use triple buffer and nvidia control panel is setted to prefer maximum performance.


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 Post subject: Re: Stuttering @60fps
 Post Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 1:11 am 
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Posts: 166
:lol: must be a translation error

Triple Buffering = 3 buffers

Triple Buffering has a high GPU memory (VRAM) cost associated with it. The graphics hardware is working just as hard as it does with double buffering the end user gets all the benefit with out the potential downside. We get smooth full frames with no tearing.

Triple buffering helps maintain a higher frame rate when vsync is enabled.

As long as you have 1gig of vram on you card, leave it on.


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 Post subject: Re: Stuttering @60fps
 Post Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 9:31 pm 
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896mb vram ... and I think that FP+Bam actually needs 2gb ram.
The problem is that the triple buffering ruins all the textures.


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 Post subject: Re: Stuttering @60fps
 Post Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 5:11 am 
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I have not heard that before :?

Triple Buffering deals with shuttering , tearing , input lag from V-sync

I think your confusing with Trilinear filtering.
Trilinear filtering results in a smooth degradation of texture quality as distance from the viewer increases. ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Stuttering @60fps
 Post Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 3:58 pm 
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monnezzas wrote:
896mb vram ... and I think that FP+Bam actually needs 2gb ram.
The problem is that the triple buffering ruins all the textures.

NO.
Here is list how much memory BAM uses:
- textures: 2x 320x240 + 1x 640x480 = ~5MB
- (*) 3x frame buffer (depends on screen res) with playfield 1920x1080 = 3x 8MB
- (**) 2x frame buffer + 1x depthbuffer (depends on screen res) = 3x 8MB in FullHD
- (***) num of vertices on scene * 24 bytes, on "big tables" we have ~200k vertices = ~5MB
total = 60MB
where:
(*) - for stereo 3D modes
(**) - for postprocessing and SSAO (you can delete PostFX.dll and you save that 24MB)
(***) - if new renderer is enabled

Triple buffering = 3x screen res * 4bytes. With double buffering (default) we have 2x screen res. So if You enable triple buffering you lost ~8MB of video ram.

All that warnings about triplebuffering are ~15 years old. If you have gfx card with 8MB or 16MB and You play in 640x480 (like on VooDoo II) this warrning is valid, but not now.

If you try to compare triple vs double buffering when you have 200 FPS with vsync off:
- triple buffering removes thering when you have V-sync: off. You can get for example 200 frames created by gfx card and you will see on 60 of them (but whole frames)
- with double buffering and v-sync off you will get 200 frames and you will see almost all 200 frames but only parts of full rendered frames (you will have thering)
- with double buffering and v-sync on gfx will draw 60 frames and you will see all that frames (gpu will have a lot of "free time" and it will save energy).

If you try to compare triple vs double buffering when you have ~50 FPS with vsync off:
- with triple buffering: gfx card will draw 50 frames, and you will see all 50 frames without thering, but some frames will be visible 2 times longer than others. You will feel it as "micro shuttering"
- with double buffering and v-sync: off --- gfx: 50 frams, you see 50 frams but with thering
- with double buffering and v-sync: on gfx will draw 30 frames and you will see all that frames (gpu will have some "free time" and it will save energy). (not alway you will get 30 FPS. This is valid only if drawning of all frames takes more than 16.6ms and less than 33ms)

@monnezzas:
You have feel of ball move shuttering when GFX card works without problems with 60FPS. Source of problem may be not in gfx card but in physics engine.
In XML you can find line:
<physics fps="256" threaded="0">
If you do some math: 256 / 60 = 4.2666 - it means thad between most frames physics engine will calc "4 steps" and for ~1/4 frames it will be "5 steps". Difference is small but you may "feel" it. There is another problem. If physics calculation takes a lot of cpu time beteen two frames CPU may not alway have time to calc all planed steps.

If i remember in VP physics engine calcs by default ~1000FPS. Physics engine is simpler (or maybe i should say better adjusted for purpose), gfx engine is simpler too (don't need a lot of cpu time). All that gives smooth ball movement.

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 Post subject: Re: Stuttering @60fps
 Post Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 6:46 pm 
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Joined: Fri Nov 22, 2013 8:25 am
Posts: 166
thanks for clarification :)
Did not know xml could be at fault.
8-)


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