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 Post subject: ID4 Sega redraw and update of Smoke table
 Post Posted: Fri May 17, 2019 7:19 pm 
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Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2011 10:02 am
Posts: 1851
Location: Argentina
Table is ready to download at pinssimdb

Thanks to:
- Smoke original table.
- GeorgeH: Physics, Dynamics flippers, adjustments, textures, he have point me some stuff added and things to do

I just make a redraw add some missing sounds and change some models here and there.
Read script for adjustments.
I play it with night lights.

Edited info at pinsimdb, I forgot some info and names hehehe

Saludos


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 Post subject: Re: ID4 Sega redraw and update of Smoke table
 Post Posted: Fri May 17, 2019 10:18 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:12 pm
Posts: 2150
Location: Arkansas, USA
Let me know the changes you want to make to the posting. I have security to change it quickly.

George


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 Post subject: Re: ID4 Sega redraw and update of Smoke table
 Post Posted: Fri May 17, 2019 10:38 pm 
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Location: Argentina
GeorgeH wrote:
Let me know the changes you want to make to the posting. I have security to change it quickly.

George

I forgot smoke on authors and the thanks to :oops:


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 Post subject: Re: ID4 Sega redraw and update of Smoke table
 Post Posted: Fri May 17, 2019 11:39 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 27, 2014 12:36 pm
Posts: 2602
Location: Ontario, Canada
George it would be great if you could

write a blurb for francisco, welcoming him back...describing the various additions to this mod. I hope to play it tomorrow after yard work

Thanks guys !


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 Post subject: Re: ID4 Sega redraw and update of Smoke table
 Post Posted: Sat May 18, 2019 2:32 am 
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Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:12 pm
Posts: 2150
Location: Arkansas, USA
OK I have changed the narrative. I can still make more changes if desired.

Georghe


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 Post subject: Re: ID4 Sega redraw and update of Smoke table
 Post Posted: Sat May 18, 2019 4:09 am 
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Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 4:46 pm
Posts: 345
nice!


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 Post subject: Re: ID4 Sega redraw and update of Smoke table
 Post Posted: Sat May 18, 2019 6:10 am 
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Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2013 10:29 am
Posts: 617
Well done! Great reworking from Francisco666!

I've got an error in the line 8791 "bLightI4.State=BulbOn" that block the game with a meditation error

The flipper aiming is good but the physic is extremely slow, comparing with a Papa Pinball video on YT seems like the slowmotion version.

Thanx Francisco for this work


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 Post subject: Re: ID4 Sega redraw and update of Smoke table
 Post Posted: Sat May 18, 2019 8:33 am 
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Joined: Mon Jan 27, 2014 12:36 pm
Posts: 2602
Location: Ontario, Canada
monnezzas wrote:
The flipper aiming is good but the physic is extremely slow, comparing with a Papa Pinball video on YT seems like the slowmotion version.

Luka,
Can you achieve your goal with Bam coding only ?


Also, a side by side comparative video would be cool

If we want to be more scientific we have speed monitoring in Bam, including maximum speed monitoring and maximum speed limiting

I believe blue started a template with suggested settings for emreel , solid state, bally .....

We have George's settings which I am used to and quite satisfied with (but I agree that real tables are likely "faster" ),

Smoke has his settings and Slam has Ultimate Pro

Instead of always releasing new table versions except for table upgrades, for physics we could have a WIP template that is simply copy and pasted
''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
Also, Luka now that you are back, there is a physics question (problem to solve) that has frustrated you and befuddled me. I believe you call it the old "sliding block"
when the ball skids and doesn't roll especially if the damping is set > 1 in Bam Physics tweaks.


Here are my perceptions of this dilemma..

1. If we set damping low , so ball does not skid , you will be visually happy, especially when it rotates along one axis .

However, multi-axis rotational ball spinning also becomes more evident and it is this type of ball spinning especially when table it is set to function at higher speeds that causes a total mess of unpredictable and erratic physics.
It must be virtually impossible for any newton code to accurately approximate this...

This leads to table developers going to all sorts of contrivances in the FP table editor moving around the "furniture" , position of pegs and bumpers and hidden walls etc...

2. If we set damping high (10) , the ball will not appear to roll (no spin) at all and will move like a static object, but if you have the table speed set as high as you want ,this "static block" ball will always move very predictably .

A generic silver ball hides
this lack of spin....

3. There is a happy medium between a "dead" but very predictable ball and a whirling dervish :lol:
Unfortunately, FP seems to have a very low tolerance for any degree of multi-axis rotational ball spin and "skidding" starts to emerge even with the slightest increase in ball damping.

4. I am also convinced that what FP visually translates from physics math is wrong and messed up.

What I mean is when you see a "sliding or skidding block" it does not necessarily mean the physic is set wrong...but rather FP visual translation of the physics is wrong.

In fact it must be, because a real ball would never react like this unless it was in some kind of friction-less vacuum somewhere in outer-space :lol:

We are being given the wrong image on the screen, there is a disconnect at certain ball speeds where what we "see" is wrong.

Can you suspend your association between visual "skidding" and actual physics ?
This a video game and not a real ball


In other words would you be happy if we somehow coded the ball to visually spin appropriately during the times of "skidding" ( If FP wrong Ball Rotation = 0 then ball spin = ball velocity, ball trajectory adjustment applied= True)

Is this even possible ? Rav previously said no ;)

But my deluded mind thinks otherwise :lol:

I've seen what BAM can do and you should all see Drakko's custom ball...I'll see if I can find it. It's beautiful....

With BAM , we can assign a perfect ball toy (of any shape, size, color , animated or not etc..) to the "actual ball" and BAM can track the real ball and match the spin and assign it to the toy ball

The toy ball tracks the real ball through the miniplayfield code.

Specifically how it works is you grab the "ball toy" in a miniplayfield box.
you attach this "miniplayfield" to the ball and match the spin or leave it nonspinning.

Miniplayfield code allows complete freedom with rotational coding of miniplayfields.

Also and interestingly, independent toy animations using old fashioned FP toy movement coding also works on miniplayfield objects that are assigned to the real ball...

Therefore we have the ability to make the toy ball spin exactly like the "real ball" or make it rotate by miniplayfiield code or FP toy code in proportion what ever BAM ball tracking parameter we choose

So what I am proposing is IF we can tell when "all real ball rotations = 0" or even when "rotational response of ball tracking in toy = 0" we can then
assign an illusion of ball rotation that will be based on direction and speed of the actual ball
(which we can already measure with BAM ball tracking)


Our illusion doesn't even have to be perfectly accurate to work... just never skidding and always visually spinning in the approximate direction the ball is going...

I will try to come up with a proof of concept.
...

All this babbling is only useful if my assumptions above are true.

You are asking for faster physics and ball that doesn't skid.... this could be a way?
What we need is a copy and paste template that will allow for faster and lively tables
that behave predictably...

Or not :lol:


Last edited by Gimli on Sat May 18, 2019 12:29 pm, edited 8 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: ID4 Sega redraw and update of Smoke table
 Post Posted: Sat May 18, 2019 11:20 am 
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Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:12 pm
Posts: 2150
Location: Arkansas, USA
I made the ball move a bit slower to compensate for the higher flipper omega that was necessary to get the ball to traverse the ramps.


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 Post subject: Re: ID4 Sega redraw and update of Smoke table
 Post Posted: Sat May 18, 2019 12:27 pm 
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Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2013 10:29 am
Posts: 617
Ok Gimli to gives you an answer...
This is what I think:

What you see in FP is the truth, it's not possible that FP shows graphically a skidding ball that is rolling for the physic, you can see by messing up some parameters, for e.g. when a ball on the ramp is not rolling but sliding, once the ball touches the playfield that has more friction goes immediatly crazy, because the previous state (in the plastic ramp) was still and suddenly (on the playfield) have to rolls cause of the friction.

To be shorter:

the new flipper physic introduced in BAM is great to reach a perfect aiming, but if you are concentrated on the aiming you can obtain a perfect aiming with an unrealistic general physic, for example in this ID4 table I can shoot all the targets with a lot of precision but I don't feel like playing a pinball, otherwise if you forget the aiming and work on the world physic you will obtain a realistic physic and for consequence a really good aiming.

That's why even if at the time there wasn't this new Flipper Physic, you could play my Medieval Madness CPM with a great aiming, if you try to shoot a ramp in MM CPM you can miss it for a few centimeters, as in the real life, but the ball never went to the opposite place.
So this answers even your last question, I think it's a really bad idea to create rolling illusion cause
Good parameters => realistic behavior => good aiming

(and yes it's possible to have good physic with Bam coding only)

I think it's better to talk about physic in a specific post, just to avoid the OT


Last edited by monnezzas on Sat May 18, 2019 1:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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