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 Post subject: Re: Define new pinball-sim-editor.... (TABLE-DEVS vs CODERS)
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 8:42 pm 
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I don't think the "no rom" comment is what thenalex meant Steve :)


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 Post subject: Re: Define new pinball-sim-editor.... (TABLE-DEVS vs CODERS)
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 11:36 pm 
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A new editor would be nice, but it took 2 years of solid work and testing for FP. That is a lot of work there, if it wasn't, then it would already be done and we will be playing it.

From a FP point of view, it just would be nice to have a single exe that can read the XML file without needing BAM. It's simple, most people would have no problems and still leave the option for others with their cabs. The second would be the object limit removed without the small problem we have, and the third if anyone is that ambitious, is the ability to at least script in things like force/elasticity that we can change when we want to within our script and I certainly find the Active ball feature very handy.

A lot of things Chris said was not possible, like the ability to set different heights on control points, as that is a big thing with ramps. But really, I think people would be happy with the 3 changes until we actually get to see the Unity version.

If you are thinking about a new editor, then the first thing I would suggest is to have a far more modern look, with the ability to have a visual icon based system for scripting. A lot of the suggestions would be nice, but the main object is to have as many people be able to use it and even deign their own tables, and a lot of the suggestions would be too high end for the average person.

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 Post subject: Re: Define new pinball-sim-editor.... (TABLE-DEVS vs CODERS)
 Post Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 6:12 am 
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Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:39 am
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Quote:
A new editor would be nice, but it took 2 years of solid work and testing for FP. That is a lot of work there, if it wasn't, then it would already be done and we will be playing it.


Ok, let's do nothing about it because it is too tong and too tedious of a job...
What kind of reasoning is this? Anyone should be happy to spend the next 2 years of their life doing something so the next generation have something solid for the future...no?

Quote:
A lot of things Chris said was not possible,


yeah, I remember saying to Chris why not implementing SVG or Eps import, and he answered me why? what the hell are these? Same thing with implementing PNG support...so clearly he had some knowledge limitation in certain area...plus, things have changed a lot since 10 years.

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 Post subject: Re: Define new pinball-sim-editor.... (TABLE-DEVS vs CODERS)
 Post Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 7:13 am 
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Steve: not sure about "chris" limitations - it was more a "I don't want to do it so I act like a dumb"

Rav:
Editor: I agree it's necessary, it's more a priority question.
Scripting: I'm aware and understand the problem about scripting. problem is, no VB is possible outside the MS Windows world.

Blue: BAM already works in "desktop" mode (as opposite to cabinet mode) - so you can run BAM to load XML / models... What we need here is a kind of "How to"

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 Post subject: Re: Define new pinball-sim-editor.... (TABLE-DEVS vs CODERS)
 Post Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 1:51 pm 
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Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2013 4:02 pm
Posts: 930
blue wrote:
...
the ability to at least script in things like force/elasticity that we can change when we want to within our script and I certainly find the Active ball feature very handy.
...

So i add to features:
[script]
- [?] change physics params (objects and enviroment) from script

blue wrote:
...
A lot of things Chris said was not possible, like the ability to set different heights on control points, as that is a big thing with ramps.
...

Every one have limits. Chris have own vision about program. He did realy good job. But it is vision of one (or few).
Good way to avoid limits of one men is to make project open. I can alone define a lot of fetures. But if i do it this way, i will create a lot of limitations and will spend many hours convincing others to my point of view. This is why i make this thread. I want to find common set of needed features.

blue wrote:
...
But really, I think people would be happy with the 3 changes until we actually get to see the Unity version. If you are thinking about a new editor, then the first thing I would suggest is to have a far more modern look, with the ability to have a visual icon based system for scripting. A lot of the suggestions would be nice, but the main object is to have as many people be able to use it and even deign their own tables, and a lot of the suggestions would be too high end for the average person...

Nice looking visual editor is one thing, on whitch big company spend milions. I think that "first release" of editor should be simply. Focused to give access to many new options.
It would be bad to sacriface 1000-5000 hours of work to create nice, mouse operated, "drag & drop" editor to create scripts without know what is script.

We should do first step. Now. How i see it:
1. Create list of desired features.
2. Narrow this list to "basic" set.
3. Div it to small parts easier to manage and control
4. Build "basic" construction, but make it easy to extend. To allow others to add all missing things.

Sit down and watch how it evolve ;)

If You expect to get AAA product like PinballFX out of box in first release, you will be dissapointed.
But with this basic/minimal/extensible version, development of new feature would be much faster (and easier).

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 Post subject: Re: Define new pinball-sim-editor.... (TABLE-DEVS vs CODERS)
 Post Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 1:59 pm 
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Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2013 4:02 pm
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TheNalex wrote:
...
Editor: I agree it's necessary, it's more a priority question.
Scripting: I'm aware and understand the problem about scripting. problem is, no VB is possible outside the MS Windows world.
...

There will be a lot of other Windows world limitations. Script engine is not big problem, if core of engine will be separated from script engine. It is mater of project design.
I think this way:
Add MS JavaScript as second engine with VBS is easy.
It will alow to Table-Dev switch to new model easy.
Replacing in future with Google V8 JS engine will be easier for Table-DEVs.

Maybe will be posible to add V8 JS from begin.

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 Post subject: Re: Define new pinball-sim-editor.... (TABLE-DEVS vs CODERS)
 Post Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 2:15 pm 
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ravarcade wrote:
TheNalex wrote:
...
Editor: I agree it's necessary, it's more a priority question.
Scripting: I'm aware and understand the problem about scripting. problem is, no VB is possible outside the MS Windows world.
...

There will be a lot of other Windows world limitations. Script engine is not big problem, if core of engine will be separated from script engine. It is mater of project design.
I think this way:
Add MS JavaScript as second engine with VBS is easy.
It will alow to Table-Dev switch to new model easy.
Replacing in future with Google V8 JS engine will be easier for Table-DEVs.

Maybe will be posible to add V8 JS from begin.


You are right. I like your way of thinking :D
JS was just an idea (even if I'm quite sure more people know JS these days than VB).

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 Post subject: Re: Define new pinball-sim-editor.... (TABLE-DEVS vs CODERS)
 Post Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 11:52 am 
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Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2012 11:45 pm
Posts: 966
Sorry I'm not a builder but I thought I would add a player perspective.

For the average or casual user that I am now, it needs to be easier to keep up to date without the thought of having to go through all of our tables as I probably won't and will just fall further away from the virtual world.

0. How about a true built in CAB mode with a FP only front end.
1. Better performance, more stable performance from table to table. Although I find FP is much better on weak PC's than VP is.
2. A way to add enhancements such as LedWiz coding without having to add it to every script of every table. I guess I'm trying to say if FP could look elsewhere for script enhancements that would be easier.
3. A more organized method of table storage. For example place the table and ALL associated files in one folder with any name of our choice. This my cause a big problem with Hyperpin all other cab launchers.
4. I agree with smaller and more efficient file types such as PNG instead of BMP. I haven't used so much BMP's since windows 95.
5. Physics Physics Physics - A way to build the tables so when we have physics changes the tables ALL don't need to be tweaked. This for me has totally held me back from trying all the new ones as of late.

I think the easier it is to use AND continue using will greatly increase it's exposure. Right now it's right on the edge of tech savvy users only. I think that should change.

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 Post subject: Re: Define new pinball-sim-editor.... (TABLE-DEVS vs CODERS)
 Post Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 12:21 pm 
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Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2013 4:02 pm
Posts: 930
jasonsmith01 wrote:
Sorry I'm not a builder but I thought I would add a player perspective.

For the average or casual user that I am now, it needs to be easier to keep up to date without the thought of having to go through all of our tables as I probably won't and will just fall further away from the virtual world.

0. How about a true built in CAB mode with a FP only front end.
1. Better performance, more stable performance from table to table. Although I find FP is much better on weak PC's than VP is.
2. A way to add enhancements such as LedWiz coding without having to add it to every script of every table. I guess I'm trying to say if FP could look elsewhere for script enhancements that would be easier.
3. A more organized method of table storage. For example place the table and ALL associated files in one folder with any name of our choice. This my cause a big problem with Hyperpin all other cab launchers.
4. I agree with smaller and more efficient file types such as PNG instead of BMP. I haven't used so much BMP's since windows 95.
5. Physics Physics Physics - A way to build the tables so when we have physics changes the tables ALL don't need to be tweaked. This for me has totally held me back from trying all the new ones as of late.

I think the easier it is to use AND continue using will greatly increase it's exposure. Right now it's right on the edge of tech savvy users only. I think that should change.

0-1. This is player-part.
2. I think, that things like LedWiz should not be build in main program. LedWiz should be one of first external plugins. I think it will also contain editor enhances.
3. Target is to have one file for one table.
5. Inside table file should be all settings physics settings, so player or editor updates should't change game behave.

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 Post subject: Re: Define new pinball-sim-editor.... (TABLE-DEVS vs CODERS)
 Post Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 3:06 pm 
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Personally speaking I think one of the most important features should be #5. Anything table related is specific ONLY to that table (contained within a file) without the need to change anything in the editor/player. That way it becomes more of load and play and not tinker for hours and hours and then play if you are still interested :)

Personally I love to tinker but do admit at times it would be nice to just load a new table and play without having to figure stuff out :)

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