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 Post subject: Re: Define new pinball-sim-editor.... (TABLE-DEVS vs CODERS)
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 3:19 pm 
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Popotte wrote:
No... tga must (for me) kept.

Why TGA? In PNG You have 32 bit per pixel: 8 bit alpha + 24bit RGB.
From TGA You don't get anything more.
GFX card store pixels normaly at 32 bit per pixel.
Even if the TGA can store more information, anyway it will be lost.

PNG have also loseless compression.

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 Post subject: Re: Define new pinball-sim-editor.... (TABLE-DEVS vs CODERS)
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 3:32 pm 
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I wouldn't do away with schematic view. There are times when its easier to align things in 2D space. I would leave the design view in 2D as is and then allow the designer to launch a second viewer window that renders the table in 3D while you are developing so you don't need to keep launching the table to check things out. With dual monitors it would be real nice to put the 3D view on the second monitor.

I also think the editor should be seperated from the table player. Users shouldn't need to load a table into an editor to play.


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 Post subject: Re: Define new pinball-sim-editor.... (TABLE-DEVS vs CODERS)
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 4:05 pm 
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Sorry Popotte I agree...PNG is lossless and have everything TGA32bit Bmp and JPG are combine.
plus you don't even have to care about creating Alpha channel mannually like TGA it is auto created in photoshop.

Tga alpha channel is created only when I export in After Effect.

Rav...One thing Important missing is real Z depth attribution as sometime the ball disappear behind transparent object like toys.. BLENDING mode is also a must. (multiply, Overlay, Add)

Reflection tag for Any object not only toys . In fact the Toy object is almost perfect. But I would Had to it the ability to create it's own hit target, having the ability of a bulb (flashing) and also use the animated keyframes from blender.

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 Post subject: Re: Define new pinball-sim-editor.... (TABLE-DEVS vs CODERS)
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 5:17 pm 
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So, I have to learn more about png, but it's not a problem.

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 Post subject: Re: Define new pinball-sim-editor.... (TABLE-DEVS vs CODERS)
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 5:44 pm 
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HappyCab wrote:
...
Rav...One thing Important missing is real Z depth attribution as sometime the ball disappear behind transparent object like toys.. BLENDING mode is also a must. (multiply, Overlay, Add)
...

Depth in texture and BLENDING operations on multiply textures and "target/output screen" is quite complicated problem. It is realy hard to define it simply way.
Most flexible solution is to:
Define material as combination of: shader program + textures (one, two, or more).
I think it is only sensible way to go.
...but it will also create problem for table-dev: old hardware. If You use nice looking effect with 3 textures You may found user with Intel GFX card and Max 2 Textures available.

... and we need texture formats to store other things like Depth/Displacment maps, NormalMaps...
HappyCab wrote:
Reflection tag for Any object not only toys . In fact the Toy object is almost perfect. But I would Had to it the ability to create it's own hit target, having the ability of a bulb (flashing) and also use the animated keyframes from blender.

Let's split it:
- more common for all objects params (like Reflection tag)
- common for all objects definition of hit targets
- animations for models

Maybe we should left behind spliting objects on table to categories?
Change how all element on table are defined.
Lets call all element on table as "object". They don't have any defined function at begin.
For all "object" You define:
- 3d model
- animations (none, or few)
- physics model
- physics params
- custom params
- build in script

All that is defined by table-dev.
From this You should be able to create almost all objects on table and define own library of objects to use on tables.

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 Post subject: Re: Define new pinball-sim-editor.... (TABLE-DEVS vs CODERS)
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 5:56 pm 
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I meant in a table, it would be easier to have only one object ,Toy.
No bumper, trigger,Light bulb, Kicker.

Only one type of object with all the ability (you want to use a toy as a light...as a bumper or a gobble hole..just set the parameter..) But I understand if not possible.

the ability to link to video cut scene (flv,f4v, mov or wmv) like when the table load
or when you press on "pause". actually we use image sequence to fake video animation, but we are limited to about 800 images before memory leak. So maybe runtime loading image..I don't know

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 Post subject: Re: Define new pinball-sim-editor.... (TABLE-DEVS vs CODERS)
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 6:36 pm 
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Post is now "sticky"

My point of view on the subject

image: JPG / PNG - other format are no interest / outdated

sound: MP3 / OGG

3d file format: milkshape ... and probably another one (blender or a format exportable from blender?). I have very limited knowledge on this subject.

physics: it should be possible to redefine physics parameters per object (as well as some "global settings" per type of object so that you can customize a particular object while leaving the other ones with the default settings).

scripting: drop VB script (only works for windows) , use another scripting engine - javascript / LUA ... I have a great preference for Javascript (V8 open sourced engined - so faaaaast), lots of people actually know how to code in js (Steve, you know action script ? you now js...). "Basic" language was an educationnal language, it was not meant to be use in real world application.

file format: a table should be one file (zip of all required files?) or at least it should be possible to play directly from a zip.

editor: should not be a priority - can use the FP editor as a workaround

"viewer": should be possible to not run the editor to play - lot of people download table to play only - the more gamers are interested, the greater the community.... the more hands avaible ;)

It should be possible to open FP tables file format (by a way or another). But, it could be a problem if switching to another scripting language.

Engine should be designed with open sourced software only if the idea is to last as long as possible. Unity is a s sooo bad idea :( They should have put their effort in something else, what a pity. Also, open source means big community of developpers willing to help. I'm quite sure, the Bullet physics guys would be interested to help if the project is going well ;)


On a side note and to prevent any problem as I'm sure the topic will surface sooner or later: I won't accept any trouble about "rom" support. Of course, there is no problem to talk about it - but NO drama, please! This is always the subject that bring problems. You are warned, thank you for your understanding.

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 Post subject: Re: Define new pinball-sim-editor.... (TABLE-DEVS vs CODERS)
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 6:45 pm 
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HappyCab wrote:
I meant in a table, it would be easier to have only one object ,Toy.
No bumper, trigger,Light bulb, Kicker.

Only one type of object with all the ability (you want to use a toy as a light...as a bumper or a gobble hole..just set the parameter..) But I understand if not possible.
....

One universal object to replace almost all objects it probably best & simplest solution to create. It will be more complicated than any object but be easier to do than create 20 diffrent objects types and mange all that diffrent types.

But not all objects cam be recreated this way, for example ramps.

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current BAM version: v1.4-241, released: Nov 9, 2018


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 Post subject: Re: Define new pinball-sim-editor.... (TABLE-DEVS vs CODERS)
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 7:19 pm 
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TheNalex wrote:
...
3d file format: milkshape ... and probably another one (blender or a format exportable from blender?). I have very limited knowledge on this subject.
...

I think there should be only one format supported (at begin), maybe milkshape.
If it will be "opensource" it should be easy add later another format or create conversion tools
TheNalex wrote:
...
physics: it should be possible to redefine physics parameters per object (as well as some "global settings" per type of object so that you can customize a particular object while leaving the other ones with the default settings).
...

I agree. Table-dev must have ability to define:
- global physiscs params
- per objects category
- per single object

TheNalex wrote:
...
scripting: drop VB script (only works for windows) , use another scripting engine - javascript / LUA ... I have a great preference for Javascript (V8 open sourced engined - so faaaaast), lots of people actually know how to code in js (Steve, you know action script ? you now js...). "Basic" language was an educationnal language, it was not meant to be use in real world application.
...

Drop of VBScript = rewrite manualy all scripts for FP tables.
I think it is bad decision.
Many Table-Dev will not want to lern new tools.

But Javascript is good second option.
On window there is one common interface to host VBScript and JavaScript.
(To add support for javascript in FP author need maybe add 10 lines of code in source).

I don't think performance is here very important.

Support for VBS and JS same time will make easy to switch for Table-Dev to new language.

TheNalex wrote:
...
file format: a table should be one file (zip of all required files?) or at least it should be possible to play directly from a zip.
...

Yes. One file for table.
Libs are nice, but if there will be libs with table objects for enduser, there will be also problems with table versions for diffrent libs.

"Libs" for DEVs, to share same objects category in multiple tables is ok.

TheNalex wrote:
...
editor: should not be a priority - can use the FP editor as a workaround
...

I don't agree. FP file format is huge drawback. All that feature don't make sense it there is no editor to create it.
I know it, because for over 2 week You can create good looking table objects with normalMaps => no one try to do this.

I think new editor with new file format is first thing to do.
Especialy if first version will not have any good defined table elemnts.

TheNalex wrote:
...
"viewer": should be possible to not run the editor to play - lot of people download table to play only - the more gamers are interested, the greater the community.... the more hands avaible ;)
...

Yup.

TheNalex wrote:
...
It should be possible to open FP tables file format (by a way or another). But, it could be a problem if switching to another scripting language.
...

I think new editor should import FP tables, but i doubt they will be fully playabele (at begin).

TheNalex wrote:
...
Engine should be designed with open sourced software only if the idea is to last as long as possible. Unity is a s sooo bad idea :( They should have put their effort in something else, what a pity. Also, open source means big community of developpers willing to help. I'm quite sure, the Bullet physics guys would be interested to help if the project is going well ;)
...

I don't think Unity is bad idea. It is wise choice to create something quick. But also creates a lot of restrictions. Unity is universal tool. Many thing in it are useless for pinball sim. Also few thing good for pinball are realy hard to do. For example i don't se any way to improve managment of transparent objects. FP draws some objects with artifacst. In FP there is few improvments for transparent objects. This improvments are missing in Unity. Also i know about few more ;).

.. and all should be open source if it should be created/developed/evolved by community .

TheNalex wrote:
...
On a side note and to prevent any problem as I'm sure the topic will surface sooner or later: I won't accept any trouble about "rom" support. Of course, there is no problem to talk about it - but NO drama, please! This is always the subject that bring problems. You are warned, thank you for your understanding.

...[/quote]

Yup. But if it will be open... someone will add it.

Anyway i think that best tables will be created, not recreated.

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 Post subject: Re: Define new pinball-sim-editor.... (TABLE-DEVS vs CODERS)
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 7:30 pm 
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my favorite 3d format is .obj (xsi,maya)


Quote:
But not all objects cam be recreated this way, for example ramps.

a ramp can be just a toy with simple collision. I don't especially like FP ramp. I prefer creating my own in 3D. but FP make it so compicated wih the ghost collision bugs...we are forced to use the FP ramps...

I agree with no ROM, we showed we can live without it.

New editor would be great just to fix the million annoyance of using the FP one

- you can not output Ramp in blueprint
- you can't branch select multiple object to delete them in texture sound and model manager.

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